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Choosing a Welsh Pony or Cob, Showing Welsh, Welsh Breed Standard, pony growth, how much weight can a pony carry, breeding

Ancient History    History Articles Pg 1    History Articles Pg 2    History Articles Pg 3

Our Welsh pony mare Kressley's Talaria lived to the ripe, and healthy, old age of 39 years.

Generally speaking a Section A Welsh pony is mentally and physically mature enough to start under saddle lightly at three years. Section B Welsh ponies don't mature mentally until at least four years and physically until 6 years, and this goes for the Section C Welsh pony of cob type and the Section D Welsh cob also.

Why the difference? I believe it is because the Section A Welsh pony for the most part is a pure pony breed, though most did have some Arabian introduced in Great Britain, for the most part that outside blood was introduced from the 1600's thru the early 1700's and was not introduced specifically for size, but rather for refinement of type. Though we can see the change in type from the Arabian influence, that influence is well beyond the 20th generation. To truly see the change in the Section A type it is well worth while searching the Hill Pony preservation groups in Wales. See the information and link below.

 The Section B Welsh ponies had various outside breeds introduced to their bloodlines right up to the early 1900's, and if you consider that many breeders then concentrated their lines on ponies carrying those outside lines, some Section B's have Thorobred and Arabian blood right up to the 10th generation. The Section D cobs generally had Hackney horse blood, Standardbred, Akhal Teke, Thorobred, Arabian, Barb and other breeds introduced from the early 1600's on.

As everyone knows horses truly mature later than a pure pony breed; and those pony breeds that have had horse blood introduced for size also mature later both mentally and physically. Please see the article below which explains the physiology of growth.

I have had many people ask how much weight can a pony or cob carry. What I tell them is that it depends on the age and the structure of the animal. NO pony or cob should be asked to carry a heavy load before it reaches six years of age, it does nothing but stress the animals joints which will limit their use-ability in years. We had a Section B mare of good bone and body, more the original type of Section B, who was not started under saddle until her seventh year and who finally passed on at 39 years old completely sound. The structure of the animal should also be taken into consideration, a light boned, light bodied animal will be less able to carry weight over a long period than a strong boned and bodied animal. That said, generally a pony or cob can carry up to 20% of their weight; if you are speaking of riding, that weight would include the tack used. Section A ponies usually go 500-550 lbs at maturity so should be able to carry 100-110 lbs comfortably. Section B ponies can go from 600-850 lbs and should be able to carry 120-170 lbs; Section C ponies are generally the same. Section D Cobs have such a difference in size range that one would have to go by the 20% of their weight figure. We have a Section D who is 950 lbs and should be able to carry up to 190 lbs, and several Section Ds that are 1200 lbs (and over) and should be able to carry 240 lbs or more. Again, age and structure should be considered. All animals can pull more than they can carry.

"I want to address the issue of maturity and deal with that concept thoroughly.

There is no such thing as a "slow-maturing" individual or a "slow maturing" breed. Let me repeat that: no horse on earth, of any breed, at any time, is or has ever been mature before the age of six (plus or minus six months). This information comes, I know, as a shock to many people who think starting their colt or filly under saddle at age two is what they ought to be doing. This begs discussion of (1) what I mean by "mature" and (2) what I mean by "starting."

(1) Just about everybody has heard of the horse's "growth plates," and commonly when I ask them, people tell me that the "growth plates" are somewhere around, or in, the horse's knees (actually they're located at the bottom of the radius-ulna bone just above the knee). This is what gives rise to the saying that, before riding the horse, it's best to wait "until his knees close" (i.e., until the growth plates fuse to the bone shaft and cease to be separated from it by a layer of slippery, crushable cartilage).

What people often don't realize is that there is a "growth plate" on either end of EVERY bone behind the skull, and in the case of some bones (like the pelvis, which has many "corners") there are multiple growth plates. So do you then have to wait until ALL these growth plates fuse? No. But the longer you wait, the safer you'll be. Owners and trainers need to realize there's a definite, easy-to-remember schedule of fusion - and then make their decision as to when to ride the horse based on that rather than on the external appearance of the horse. For there are some breeds of horse - the Quarter Horse is the premier among these - which have been bred in such a manner as to LOOK mature long before they actually ARE mature. This puts these horses in jeopardy from people who are either ignorant of the closure schedule, or more interested in their own schedule (for futurities or other competitions) than they are in the welfare of the animal.

The process of fusion goes from the bottom up. In other words, the lower down toward the hoofs you look, the earlier the growth plates will have fused; and the higher up toward the animal's back you look, the later. The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone (the most distal bone of the limb) is fused at birth. What this means is that the coffin bones get no TALLER after birth (they get much larger around, though, by another mechanism). That's the first one. In order after that:

2. Short pastern - top & bottom between birth and 6 mos.
3. Long pastern - top & bottom between 6 mos. And 1 yr.
4. Cannon bone - top & bottom between 8 mos. And 1.5 yrs.
5. Small bones of knee - top & bottom on each, between 1.5 and 2.5 yrs.
6. Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 yrs.
7. Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 yrs.
8. Humerus - top & bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.
9. Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion - between 3.5 and 4 yrs.
10. Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb
11. Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial & fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks)
12. Tibia - top & bottom, between 2.5 and 3 yrs.
13. Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.; neck, between 3.5 and 4 yrs.; major and 3rd trochanters, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.
14. Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 yrs.

...and what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum. These do not fuse until the horse is at least 5 1/2 years old (and this figure applies to a small-sized, scrubby, range-raised mare. The taller your horse and the longer its neck, the later full fusion will occur. And for a male - is this a surprise? – you add six months. So, for example, a 17-hand TB or Saddlebred or WB gelding may not be fully mature until his 8th year - something that owners of such individuals have often told me that they "suspected" ).

The lateness of vertebral "closure" is most significant for two reasons.

One: in no limb are there 32 growth plates! Two: The growth plates in the limbs are (more or less) oriented perpendicular to the stress of the load passing through them, while those of the vertebral chain are oriented parallel to weight placed upon the horse's back. Bottom line: you can sprain a horse's back (i.e., displace the vertebral growth plates) a lot more easily than you can sprain those located in the limbs. And here's another little fact: within the chain of vertebrae, the last to fully "close" are those at the base of the animal's neck (that's why the long-necked individual may go past 6 yrs. to achieve full maturity). So you also have to be careful - very careful - not to yank the neck around on your young horse, or get him in any situation where he strains his neck (i.e., better learn how to get a horse broke to tie before you ever tie him up, so that there will be no likelihood of him ever pulling back hard. And readers if you don't know how to do this, then please somebody write in and ask!).

Now, the other "maturity" question I always get is this: "so how come if my colt is not skeletally mature at age 2 he can be used at stud and sire a foal?" My answer to that is this: sure, sweetie, if that's how you want to define maturity, then every 14 year old boy is mature. In other words, the ability to achieve an erection, penetrate a mare, and ejaculate some semen containing live sperm cells occurs before skeletal maturity, both in our species and in the horse. However, even if you only looked at sperm counts or other standard measures of sexual maturity that are used for livestock, you would know that considering a 2 year old a "stallion" is foolish.

Male horses do not achieve the testicular width or weight, quality or quantity of total ejaculate, or high sperm counts until they're six. Period. And people used to know this; that's why it's incorrect to refer to any male horse younger than 4 as a "stallion," whether he's in service or not. Peoples' confusion on this question is also why we have such things as the Stallion Rehabilitation Program at Colorado State University or the behavior-modification clinic at Cornell - because a two year old colt is no more able to "take command" on a mental or psychological level of the whole process of mating - which involves everything from "properly" being able to ask the mare's permission, to actually knowing which end of her to jump on, to being able to do this while some excited and usually frightened humans are banging him on the nose with a chain - than is a 14 year old boy.

(2) Now, let's turn to the second discussion, which is what I mean by "starting" and the whole history of that. Many people today - at least in our privileged country -- do not realize how hard you can actually work a horse - which is very, very hard. But before you can do that without significantly damaging the animal, you have to wait for him to mature, which means - waiting until he is four to six years old before asking him to carry you on his back. What bad will happen if you put him to work as a riding horse before that? Two important things - and probably not what you're thinking of. What is very UNlikely to happen is that you'll damage the growth plates in his legs. At the worst, there may be some crushing of the cartilages, but the number of cases of deformed limbs due to early use is tiny. The cutting-horse futurity people, who are big into riding horses as young as a year and a half, will tell you this and they are quite correct.

Want to damage legs?
There's a much better way - just overfeed your youngstock (see Forum postings on this. You ought to be able to see the animal's ribs – not skeletal, but see them - until he's two). More likely is that you'll cause structural damage to his back. There are some bloodlines (in Standardbreds, Arabians, and American Saddlebreds) known to inherit weak deep intervertebral ligament sheathing; these animals are especially prone to the early, sudden onset of "saddle back". However, individuals belonging to these bloodlines are by no means the only ones who may have their back "slip" and that's because, as mentioned above, the stress of weightbearing on the back passes parallel to the growth plates as well as the intervertebral joints. However, I want to add that the frequency of slipped backs in horses under 6 years old is also very low. So, what's to worry about? Well...did you ever wish your horse would "round up" a little better? Collect a little better? Respond to your leg by raising his back, coiling his loins, and getting his hindquarter up underneath him a little better? The young horse knows, by feel and by "instinct", that having a weight on his back puts him in physical jeopardy.

I'm sure that all of you start your youngstock in the most humane and considerate way that you know how, and just because of that, I assure you that after a little while, your horse knows exactly what that saddle is and what that situation where you go to mount him means. And he loves you, and he is wiser than you are, so he allows this. But he does not allow it foolishly, against his deepest nature, which amounts to a command from the Creator that he must survive; so when your foot goes in that stirrup, he takes measures to protect himself. The measures he takes are the same ones YOU would take in anticipation of a load coming onto your back: he stiffens or braces the muscles of his topline, and to help himself do that he may also brace his legs and hold his breath ("brace" his diaphragm). The earlier you choose to ride your horse, the more the animal will do this, and the more often you ride him young, the more you reinforce in his mind the necessity of responding to you in this way. So please - don't come crying to me when your 6 year old (that was started under saddle as a two year old) proves difficult to round up!

If he does not know how to move with his back muscles in release, he CANNOT round up!! So - bottom line - if you are one of those who equates "starting" with "riding," then I guess you better not start your horse until he's four. That would be the old, traditional, worldwide view: introduce the horse to equipment (all kinds of equipment and situations) when he's two, crawl on and off of him at three, saddle him to begin riding him and teaching him to guide at four, start teaching him maneuvers or the basics of whatever job he's going to do - cavalletti or stops or something beyond trailing cattle - at five, and he's on the payroll at 6. The old Spanish way of bitting reflected this also, because the horse's teeth aren't mature i.e., the tushes haven't come in and all the permanent teeth, until he's six either."

No the Welsh ponies did not look as they do today, but more like the Celtic root stock, which is where they came from. Most of those native ponies of the Celtic root stock looked more or less alike; however the deep valleys and high mountains, and harsh terrain did separate the regions, and 'subspecies', if you will, developed and in time became different breeds off the main stem.

I think we strive to defend the traditional standard because that is how Welsh were defined over a century ago by the stewards who not only had ponies, but were livestockmen of the highest order. And, in the case of Criban, had been breeding Welsh for over 400 years on their Brecon Beacons.  They owned all in the area, including that mountain range and more, until unfortunately a dam flooded much of the valley land and their old home place.

 The Criban, Forest, Revel studs accomplished the nearly impossible feat of producing Welsh ponies that you would recognize as their own on sight, as did Severn, Liseter and GlanNant in the US; without, I might add, the input of self expressed "experts" who have done nothing but muddied the clear waters of breeding Welsh ponies and cobs by dire premonitions of "lack of genetic diversity" due to lack of "new" stallions and broodstock in the US. Do you really think that these predictions were for the betterment of the breed, or do you think that those predictions might have been promulgated to encourage unknowledgeable people to accept the new standard of Welsh ponies and cobs in the U.S. which the newer UK breeders also were and are aspiring to.
Did all breeders and owners fall for this "fear tactic"? Not by a long shot thank God, you can still find well bred, to the Breed Standard Welsh ponies here in the US. Breeding that has to a large degree been lost to the UK.
Do you want a good Crossbred pony based on Welsh pony lines? Then purchase an imported Welsh pony with a majority of thorobred blood.

The original ponies, before outside blood (Arab, Thoroughbred, etc.), were small, mostly dark primitive colors, straight headed, but still possessed the pluck and hardiness they were noted for down through the centuries.

The Welsh Pony has had a close relationship with man over the centuries, serving him in many capacities. He has doubtlessly gone through changes down through the years, all certainly not for the good. NONE of our ponies are of 'original' type, but some are of more original type than most, and are possessors of those wonderful qualities and conformation of a century ago.

Trying to protect and perpetuate any breed against 'change' is a daunting task, certainly not an easy one, when the winds of change blow hard, and it is human nature to 'better' everything on earth. We all have known TRUE WELSH and that is the core of why we will do our thing, run against the tide, and try so hard to keep some of them for generations in the future.

Name, farm name, address, telephone, email/website & one line of text
$20 per year for listing
$25 per year with a link to your email/website

Welsh Pony and Cob Society of America, Inc.
720 GREEN STREET
STEPHENS CITY, VA 22655
(540) 868-PONY (7669)

WPCSA Transfers List

Ever wonder just where are the ponies being sold to or did that person ever send in the transfer of ownership?  The WPCSA offers a monthly list of all transfers of ownership processed.  This service is $20 per year for members and includes the following information: animal's registration number, registered name, date of transfer, seller(s) name & purchaser(s) name & address.

Judging the Welsh Breeds - Mrs. Alison Mountain (1974)
The Royal Welsh Show 1976

Words on Welsh - 1981 Pony Journal
The future of Welsh Cobs in the US - 1988 Welsh Roundabout
Creating a Legacy - Ponies 1988
Welsh Section B - Welsh Roundabout 1992

At the meeting of Members Services on Tuesday 13^th November, the subject of white markings was discussed. A solution was framed to go before Council on Monday December 10^th where it was passed unanimously. As the subject is of significant interest to members we feel it appropriate to post the general outline of the solution accepted by the Council in advance of the minutes.

The Council of the WP&CS has agreed to amend the regulations for entry to the Stud Book to read:

Colour: Any colour, except piebald and skewbald including tobiano and overo patterns.

Excessive white should be discouraged. In the showring Judges will be empowered to judge according to personal preference. This will be highlighted in the Judging and Showing Handbook that will be published in January.

Penalties for not supplying the correct colour and markings would be immediate withdrawal of the members’ right to complete colour and markings on registrations. Further penalties could extend to disciplinary proceedings or trading standards.

Following this clarification of regulations, animals registered within Section X of the Stud Book can be reviewed by the Members Services Committee. Individuals wishing to appeal should do so in writing to the Society at 6 Chalybeate Street, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, SY23 1HP.

 Based on and reprinted from Welsh Ponies & Cobs magazine of WPCS

At one time, the hills of Wales and the borders were alive with hill ponies; herds of wild, hardy animals left virtually to fend for themselves, ensuring that only the hardiest survived. Mother Nature’s doctrine of “survival of the fittest” led to the evolution of the Welsh Mountain Pony into an agile, hardy, fit, strong, intelligent and beautiful animal.

The enormous contribution that the hill breeders have made to retain the traditional characteristics of the Welsh Mountain Pony is now being recognised it is a must that we retain these irreplaceable animals. Indeed, it is essential to try and maintain the tradition of keeping these ponies on their natural heath to ensure that these invaluable characteristics are not lost over the years.  At some Hill Sales you will see breeders seeking out these bloodlines.

However, in the late 20^th century, the decline in numbers of the Hill Ponies became apparent to many of the Hill Breeders and The Welsh Pony and Cob Society Council Members. The Welsh Pony and Cob Society subsequently asked Betty French to carry out a survey on The Welsh Mountain Pony. Betty was assisted by her husband Brian and carried out the enormous task.

A precise of the survey:

by Elizabeth French

[From the "Hill Ponies of Wales Newsletter" Issue 1, April 2005]

You may ask “Why this survey”?  Well, the hill ponies are our heritage, our ponies and cobs are admired all over the world, they have descended from the forebears of a gene pool of these hardy ponies on the hills, their survival is imperative for us to have a gene pool of these ponies. The purpose of this survey was to present the figures to The Rare Breeds Trust and for the application for Rare Breed Status and as a result the hill ponies are now on "The Rare Breeds List"

Many members thought the hill ponies were safe and that there were at least still 2000 breeding mares on the hills.  The survey showed that this was not so and that registered breeding mares of four years old and over were down to the very low number of less than 800 - this puts them into the category of “At Risk”.  Although the numbers have a built in ten per cent allowance for ponies not as yet visited, it was noted that of all the thirty areas visited only one hill breeder has increased his herd due to the renewed interest of the family.

To the year 2000 there had been a decline of the hill ponies by 25% over the previous eight years. Foot & Mouth was devastating and because of the hardships the decline of hill ponies has continued.

The general interest of all members was very positive and to further this interest Betty has over nine hundred photos and two hundred slides and is prepared to give talks and presentations to emphasis the importance of retaining the feral Welsh Mountain Pony in its natural environment.  The three years of gathering the information was a never to be forgotten project. Betty had the help and friendship of Hill Breeders, without whom it would not have been possible to make this survey a success.  She says "The whole experience was reward in itself, therefore this survey did not incur any cost to the Society, and through this survey, the hill ponies have received recognition from The Rare Breeds Trust."

If you would like to become "A Friend of the Hill Ponies of Wales Newsletter" and subscribe to the next two Issues of the newsletter by post (postage included) then click the button below.  Subscription will include an invitation to a Hill Walk or an Open Day at a Hill Breeder's Stud during 2009.  Cost is £15 per annum and you can pay in a variety of ways.

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Details of The Welsh  Pony and Cob Society Welsh Mountain Premium Scheme

1.      The administration of the scheme will be based on the ability of the Pony Improvement Societies to apply the conditions and requirements of the Commons Lands Act. The Societies will be entirely responsible for the control of their area and will annually certify to the Welsh Pony and Cob Society that the conditions of the Commons and Enclosures Acts and Regulations have been and are effectively carried out particularly in connection with the clearance of scrub stallions. On the Inspection day a few Improvement Societies may be selected at random and the Hill or Common under their jurisdiction inspected by members of an elected Committee.

2.      The Societies will be responsible for the selection and acquisition of the Welsh Mountain pony stallions either by hire, lease, loan or purchase as their Committee may decide.

3.      The Societies will be entirely responsible for the payment of hiring fee/purchase price as the case may be.

4.      The terms of hiring, leasing or lending will be settled between the Improvement Society and the stallion owner; the Welsh pony and Cob Society will not be responsible either directly or indirectly nor in an advisory capacity.

5.      The Societies will submit annually and as required by the Welsh Pony and Cob Society a form of census and information and this form must be completed and returned to the Secretary of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society within the prescribed dates. Failure to complete and return the form within the period will result in the withdrawal of the privileges of association and participation in money and other grants.

6.      The Welsh Pony and Cob society as administrators of the Premium Scheme will arrange for two of it’s official judges annually to award Premiums to selected Welsh Mountain Pony Stallions presented by the Societies and will meet the cost of administration from it’s own funds.

7.      The judges so appointed will be guided in making their awards by the standard of type as laid down in the Society’s Stud Book, and will submit a schedule of their awards to the Secretary of the Society together with an informative Report.

8.      The judges will have absolute discretion in withholding Premiums and will give regard to the physical condition of the stallions, satisfying themselves that the ponies are fit for service, and will only approve stallions that possess the highest standard of quality.

9.      The inspection will generally be held in May of each year at the Royal Welsh Showground, Llanelwedd, Builth Wells.

10.  The Welsh Mountain Pony stallions awarded Premiums at Glanusk Show in from 2001 onwards will have mane samples taken for DNA typing on the Showground immediately following the Premium Classes. Animals that have already been DNA typed will not be re-done, but for all others it will be a condition of receiving the Premium. The cost of the DNA testing kit will be borne by the Society. Mr S.W.R.Mitchell has very kindly offered to take the mane samples free of charge and the Society wishes to thank him for his generosity. If the stallion owner prefers to have the DNA mane sample taken by his own Veterinary Surgeon after the Show he may do so. In this case he should take the DNA testing kit home with him and must ensure that the sample is taken no later than 10 days after the Show. His Veterinary Surgeon should post this to Newmarket in the normal way and the stallion owner must confirm, in writing, to the Secretary of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society that the sample has been taken. In this case the Veterinary Surgeon’s fees will be borne by the stallion owner.

11.  The rosettes will be awarded to the owners of the stallions that are awarded Premiums.

12.  The Societies must satisfy the Welsh Pony and Cob Society that the Stallion passes for a Premium is registered in Section A of the Stud Book and holds a Licence/Veterinary Certificate issued by the Welsh Pony and Cob Society. These documents must be recorded at the Society’s Office prior to the Inspection.

13.  The judges will place the entered stallions in order of merit according to their judgement for the purpose of Premiums.

14.  The judges will be at liberty to offer advice if it is sought on the merits of stallions which are not awarded Premiums or on matters of mutual interest.

15.  The Premiums awarded will be paid by the Welsh Pony and Cob Society on receipt of a certificate from the Secretary of the Improvement Society that the stallion in question has run on the Hill or Common in accordance with the conditions of the Scheme for the period 1^st June (or before) to the 31^st July.

16.  Improvement Societies may, on being recommended by the Improvement Societies and subject to the approval of Council, be allowed to run their stallions under fence provided that the stallions are made available to members of Hill Improvement Societies in the normal way.

17.  The Societies must guarantee that the stallions are roaming the Hills and Commons in respect of which the Premiums are awarded.

18.  The responsibility for loss or damage to the stallion or caused by the stallion from whatever cause is a risk which must be agreed as between the Association and the stallion owner. The Welsh Pony and Cob Society will not be responsible directly or indirectly under this Scheme or otherwise for any liability arising from any cause.

19.  First and final objects of the Premium Award Scheme shall always be the improvement of the Breed. The colour and markings of all foals will be scanned. The original colour and markings, as completed by the applicant, will be scanned directly onto the animal’s Passport. It is therefore vitally important that all markings are clearly shown, especially any distinguishing marks such as whorls, flesh (pink) marks and hoof colouring. New application forms are available from the Office – please do not use any old stocks of application forms.

 Please note that the following were approved following consultation with Welsh Mountain Pony Improvement Societies, members will note that some of these rules are already in being:

1.      No scrub stallions or yearling   colts to run on the Hill, requirement of the Commons Land Act.

2.      All members are required to abide by the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Welsh Mountain Pony Premium Scheme Rules.

3.      Members of Hill Pony Improvement Societies must be proven members of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society.

4.      All members’ young stock, mares and stallions are registered with the Welsh Pony and Cob Society and will carry a passport from 1999. If further legislation is necessary, the Society (Improvement) will co-operate.

New Ruling introduced in 2003.

a.      Animal Welfare Officers selected by the Society have the right to inform any member(s) of animal(s) that are not up to the standard expected. Notice of removal will be given with immediate effect.

b.      It was recommended that all members’ foals be taken off the common by 31^st October of each year.

c.       A recommended worming programme be administered.

d.      All members are legally responsible for their own animals. However, the Society will take action deemed necessary of any member(s) contravening these matters.

Confused about Piebald/Skewbald/Tobiano/Overo - Definitive Information at this site:

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