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Denise Loeffel 973-875-7677 |
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Judging |
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| As an exhibitor, when I attend a show I expect two major considerations. First I expect that the Judging of my ponies and cobs will be fair. I expect the Judge to be able to dismiss from mind known acquaintances and animals. Second I expect the judging to be competent. I expect the Judge to clear his or her own preferences in animals from consideration of the class before him, and judge solely against the Welsh Breed Standard and by the rules of the welsh breed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Here is the NEW 2010 WPCSA Judges Evaluation Form |
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You can get one from the WPCSA Office, or from the
officials at a show, and there is a link below. |
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Examples: Type, Conformation, Movement
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FIT NOT FAT |
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| Welsh Pony & Cob Conformation, welsh pony breed conformation, welsh cob conformation, breed standard | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| judging welsh ponies and cobs | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| WELSH JUDGES IN THE USA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| This is a list of fair and experienced judges of Welsh Ponies and Cobs
provided by exhibitors. It is Show Management's job to evaluate and choose a suitable judge for their show. We do not list poor judges. |
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| NAME | RATING | NAME | RATING | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Marsha S. Himler |
Section A & D Halter, excellent with Driving (competes ADS), Pleasure US |
Suellen (Rosie) Mally |
Schooling shows, dressage shows
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| Suzan Stevens | good all around judge that has competed in almost all the disciplines; judges BY THE BOOK | Dana Caudle-Byal | knowledge of Welsh ponies with true type, conformation and movement | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tracy Dopko | competes in all major performance disciplines; very good with conformation, knows the difference between welsh breed type and movement and pony hunter type and movement | Jane Fischer du Thouars | section A breeder; good with type and movement | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Nikki Cohen-Wichner | good performance judge; knows her rulebook and uses it | JoAnn Williams | dressage background; watches conformation and movement | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sabra Schiller | long time breeder; has trained ponies and horses all her life in riding and driving | Jackie Luebke-Puetz | dressage trainer and competitor; good with conformation, movement and performance | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Brian McClelland | good overall; takes his job very seriously; good to work with | Samantha Johnson | good for conformation and movement; good to work with | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| India Haynes | noted cob expert; has done ridden Welsh and has experience in the UK | Diana Cappellanti | has USEF hunter card; very good with all riding classes and exhibitors | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Molly Rinedollar | good all around judge that has competed at top levels in almost all the disciplines; current hunter trainer/instructor | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Those who defined the BREED STANDARD were the caretakers of the day who saw a need to have a general registry for the breeding records, getting them out of each farmer's dining room, and recording them in a central location, for all to see and have access to. They were only the breeders of the DAY. The Welsh breed was centuries old, and much commented about in old Celtic writings, and already established when Julius Caesar invaded Brittany in 55 a.d. No the Welsh ponies did not look as they do today, but more like the Celtic root stock, which is where they came from. Most of those native ponies looked more or less alike; however the deep valleys and high mountains, and harsh terrain did separate the regions, and 'subspecies', if you will, developed and in time became different breeds off the main stem. I think we strive to defend the traditional standard because that is how Welsh were defined over a century ago, by the stewards who not only had ponies, but were livestockmen of the highest order. And, in the case of Criban, had been breeding Welsh for over 400 years on their Brecon Beacons. They owned all in the area, including that mountain range and more, until unfortunately a dam flooded much of the valley land and their old home place. Those original ponies, before outside blood (Arab, Thoroughbred, etc.), were small, mostly dark primitive colors, straight headed, but still possessed the pluck and hardness they were noted for down through the centuries. The Welsh Pony has had a close relationship with man over the centuries, serving him in many capacities. He has doubtlessly gone through many changes down through the years, all certainly not for the good. NONE of our ponies are of 'original' type, but some are of more original type than most, and are possessors of those wonderful qualities and conformation of a century ago. Trying to protect and perpetuate any breed against 'change' is a daunting task, certainly not an easy one, when the winds of change blow hard, and it is human nature to 'better' everything on earth. We all have known TRUE WELSH and that is the core of why we will do our thing, run against the tide, and try so hard to keep some of them for generations in the future. Cherry Wilson, Welsh Judge & long-time Breeder |
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Preservation Breeding the Past & The Future
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In volume 1 of the Welsh Stud Book the Welsh Mountain Ponies were allowed to be up to 12 hands 2 inches and every entry had to be inspected and passed, both by an Inspector of the Society and (for stallions only) by a Veterinary Surgeon. Entries amounted to 9 stallions and 273 mare; of the stallions one was grey, the others were dark coloured, mainly bays and browns, of the mares 66% were bay/brown/black, 14% chestnuts, 8% roan, 4% creams/duns and others of unrecorded colour (only two mares). |
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The Decline of the Section B Welsh Pony Standard |
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| The Section B animal registered in Volume 1 of the Welsh Stud Book was a most
useful type that would carry a shepherd on his day’s work. With the increased popularity of riding by children since 1930 a finer, lighter type of pony has been developed with strong emphasis being laid on striving to keep the true ‘Welsh’ characteristics. The typical Welsh Section B pony shown at present is the current Working Hunter Pony, much like the British Riding Pony in both looks and pedigrees. To bring this about a few stallions of slighter type containing at least 50% of Welsh blood were admitted to the Stud Book, the two most influential being CRAVEN CYRUS and TANYBWLCH BERWYN. The infusion of this outside blood began an expansion of Section B in 1958/1959 when progeny of FS2 mares, born of this blood, led to four sires who between them laid a very firm foundation for the change in the Section B: SOLWAY MASTER BRONZE (foaled in 1959), BROCHWELL COBWELL (foaled in 1959), DOWNLAND DAUPHIN (foaled in 1959), CHIRK CARADOG (foaled in 1958) and his full brother CHIRK CROGAN (foaled in 1959). |
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Don't Confuse the Two |
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Welsh Pony |
British Riding Pony |
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| Bred in the mountains and wild regions of Wales for many generations,
their acknowledged beauty does not mean they are merely a 'pretty toy' — centuries of 'survival of the fittest' has ensured the sound constitution, iron
hard limbs and great intelligence which combined with the legendary Welsh temperament, makes the ideal child's pony of today. They can be seen ridden and
driven all over the world — equally at home in the cold of Canada and Sweden or the heat of Africa and Australia. The head of the Mountain Pony should be small, with neat pointed ears, big bold eyes and a wide forehead. The jaw should be clean cut, tapering to a small muzzle; the silhouette may be concave or 'dished' but never convex or too straight. The neck should be of good length and well carried with shoulders sloping back to a clearly defined wither. The limbs must be set square with good flat bone and round dense hooves. The tail set high and gaily carried. Action must be quick, free and straight from the shoulder, knees and hocks well flexed with straight and powerful leverage well under the body. The Section B Welsh Pony
For generations these ponies were the hill farmers' main means of transport, herding sheep and wild ponies over rough and mountainous country. They had to be hardy, balanced and fast to survive, which ensured that only the best were bred from. These qualities, combined with a natural jumping ability, and the temperament of their Welsh Mountain Pony forebears make the Welsh Pony second to none in whatever field his young rider may choose. Today they hold their own among our top class riding ponies both in performance competitions and in the show ring.
Welsh Pony and Cob Detailed Description
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BREED STANDARD The British Riding Pony should possess a good, honest, attractive head All colors except pinto. Origins Breeding of a good riding and sporting pony began in earnest in the 1920’s and started by crossing Welsh and Dartmoor ponies with the blood of small Thoroughbred and Arabian animals. In the mid 20th century more Arabian blood was introduced in the hopes of further refining the ponies and adding stamina. 
To be eligible for entry into the British
Riding Pony Stud Book, Register, Appendix or Baseline the pony
must have been born in the United Kingdom and must have some proven native pony breeding in its pedigree.
Riding Ponies were originally the result of
crossing one of the British Mountain and Moorland Native Breeds with a Thoroughbred or Arab. Over time an
increasing number of the ponies being registered by the NPS are the progeny of British
Riding Pony sires and dams.
British Riding Ponies have outstanding quality and retain the pony
characteristics of good temperament, hardiness and surefootedness. They possess the ability to make the ideal Ridden
Pony. They do not exceed 153cms (15.0 hands).
The Show Pony – Resemble a smaller show horse with pony features and they are shown in three height sections
The Show Hunter – Tend to have more substance than the show pony, built for more eventing needs The Working Hunter – The largest and most robust of the three types  |
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Mountain and Moorland Ponies |
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| The modern day survival of the native pony can be much
attributed to the leisure industry, pony trekking and various other activities have become popular. The native pony's size and build makes them an ideal
mount to carry both adults and children. Introduction of foreign blood to pure stock, the onset of war, and mechanisation have all threatened the survival of each native breed. Selective breeding programs, and the establishment of breed societies who, for the most part, recognised these threats, have worked to preserve the purity and true characteristics of native ponies. Maintaining the wonderful heritage of native ponies is paramount. |
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| Influential Section B sire Tan-y-Bwlch
Berwyn's sire was an African Barb pony. In 1565, noted writer of British horses,
Thomas Blunderville, stated that horses commonly called “… Barbarians do come out of the King of Tunis land, out of Massilie Numidia. They were small, but
very swift and durable … which is the cause why we (Britain’s) esteem them so much.” The Berbers from North Africa formed a substantial part of the Muslim armies that invaded Spain in the 8th century, and it seems clear that their Barb horses played a major part in the development of the Spanish Horse, Including the modern version of which is the Andalucian . The Barb was also influential in the evolution of the Thoroughbred. Horses from North Africa, variously termed Berber, Barb, or Barbary, were imported to the Royal Studs of England from before the time of the Plantagenets. Roan Barbary, the favorite horse of Richard II (1377-99), was one of many horses of the same origin at the king's studs. Barb blood, together with that of the Spanish Jennet, itself at least a first cousin to the Barb, was certainly a predominant element in the Royal "running horses", which formed the base stock for the early Thoroughbred. |
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The white issue NEVER was, and IS NOT, whether a pony or cob is a purebred or not. |
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EXHIBITOR AND JUDGE DISCUSSIONS |
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2009 (2008 Below) |
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| My stallion just has a sunken space where his eye was removed, about the size of a large walnut. My vet said it is considered an unsoundness. Would be interested to hear what other people think. - Julie | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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To me, what an animal was not BORN WITH is of no consequence to me, as long as they can perform what is ask of them.
There are plenty of Tbred race horses will one eye doing very well. And on some the blinders are only half cups so those have very limited vision
anyway.
However, the book does say SERVICEABLY SOUND, and with no farther interpretation. I do think an animal with one eye
can be 'serviceably sound'. One of the very top pony hunters I knew as a young woman helping out at Lisa Russell's in San Antonio was Jeb Stewart,
a one eyed mixed breed pony, and he was a fabulous jumper, no problems. He did turn his head a tad to see the fences. In driving I see no
problems with a one eyed pony. Only where you might question is the Breed Standard says-----EYES BOLD, however if the one is, surely the other
was.
In the ring, I have judged a good many ponies clearly with eye problems, either large dark/light areas or problems such as
to render that eye useless. I do not remember knocking any of them down at all for just the eye.
I am more or less a maverick if you will, my Supreme Champion at the Western National in 1988 being a mare with one split
eye and a huge and hairless scar running from inside the gaskin all the way down the leg. One year at the Louisiana State Fair Wayland Carlisle
showed an old broodmare who had a lot of scars and lumps etc. and I made her Supreme Champion. After the show someone asked me why I had done such
a thing as there were many there 'prettier' than she. My answer was--------She was the BEST one.
A judge can even take off for such of they wish, and the blemished one can still win of they are that much better than the
others.
No where in the Breed Standard does it say one word about Welsh having a dished head, NO WHERE. That is why I have to
laugh at folk bemoaning a 'straight' head on a Welsh Pony. It is perfectly alright and in accordance with the Standard for the breed. The
more Arabian characteristics come with a lot of flaws, form head to toe, and original Celtic ponies certainly did not have dished heads.
I would show the one eyed one, and if placed low I would ask the judge why. And if the judge replies the eye, tell her
to have this ready straight out of the rules book-----------
" TRANSMISSIBLE WEAKNESS AND UNSOUNDNESS TO BE COUNTED AGAINST IN BREEDING AND PERFORMANCE CLASSES."
art. 110.4 pg. 9 - Cherry
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| Here is a mare I'd like your opinion on. She is a lovely mare and I like her depth of body. Looks to me like she would take up a lot of leg when riding. Nice butt. I dont mind the head as much, its pretty enough and that can be 'fixed' without much fuss if need be. I will have to ask Mom again about her opinion of necks and how she feels about them fitting the horse. This would be a good example to discuss...MOM??? No one thinks (like Fairytale) this mare is a TAD long in the back? My thoughts on that... as a broodmare I will forgive it, a colt I will not. - Sara | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Sara her back is VERY VERY short, look where the wither is, WAAAAAY back and her croup is long, so you have the laid down shoulder pushing the back backward, and the long croup pushing the back forward, and what is left is barley enough for a saddle, a small saddle, the way they are SUPPOSED to be.- Cherry | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Look at how long the top of her neck is compared to the underline of her neck. I don’t think you can get that kind of a neck with a long back. Yes, her head seems large for today’s standards, but I bet she has room for a brain and teeth and air. It’s hard to judge her leg/back proportions from a moving photo, but if her legs can go like that, her parts must be in pretty much the right places. So, now we need to know….what’s her breeding? - Margaret | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| love this conformation evaluating that you guys often do. I have noticed that a whole lot of really good Dressage horses, have a larger head then one would like, and it often goes along with a rather thin neck too. I wonder if it is because the larger head means jawbones farther apart, and more able to fit that thinner neck in between those jawbones without cutting off the air supply, for proper, or easier carriage. Then too, in my own personal mounts of which there have been many, those larger heads also have a larger nose and mouth, the plus there being larger nostrils that stretch open farther, for better air intake, and I have found many larger mouths which automatically come on those larger heads, can often carry and bit better and quieter. Some of my most favorite performers, mine and other people's, have had that larger head and thinner neck configuration, and they were exceptionally good in the endurance and stamina department and also interesting enough, better in the temperature extreme that we have down here in FL in the summer, they work better here in the heat and humidity without giving out. These were not what would be classically thought of as "halter horses", either. - Lynda | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| I think you are right on on some, good girl. I do not think she is 'built' too heavy, just too many groceries. YES, her legs are too short, good girl, and her head is too long, but her back is very, very short. All of you need to take a good hard look at WHERE her back starts, just behind the wither, and where it ends, where the croup starts. She has a VERY laid down and long shoulder and a long croup, thus a short back, so short in fact she could only carry a small saddle. When you first look at the picture you might think long, but you must fine the two points of the back, the beginning and the end, different story.- Cherry | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Possibly so in horses. But the Welsh, as far as I know, never had large heads just wider which did as you stated .... larger air passage, and LARGE open, nostrils for the same. I do notice however many B's being bred with longer thinner necks, no musculature, lower carriage or very high carriage, kind of looks ungainly. Wonder where that comes from. - Denise | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Oh come on Denise, you know the where it comes from, ha, and it ain't 'WELSH'.- Cherry | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Yes, you're right ........ we all know where that comes from, but sometimes it's best to let individuals come to their own conclusion. - Denise | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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YES to the foreign blood. Most of the old hill type ponies did not have Arabian style heads, most no dishing at all
totally straight, but the heads were dry and on the smallish side, certainly not long and narrow. The B is another story, and ALL B ponies have
blood other than A, most other than C, or D, with the exception of Criban Victor. Would we rather have B ponies founded on Arabian, Barb, Tbred,
or Cob blood? To me always been a no brainer.
*Just a note, most of my old imported A mares and FS mares, most of you might not have had at all. They were for the
most part, straight headed, short crouped, fairly long, and some were rather roman nosed, they however did not produce the same. These had a hard
life and a lot of what a pony looks like can be chalked up to its ENVIRONS rather than it's blood. Some of these old mares did not know
how to eat feed and had never in all their life had it, most were totally untrained and had never been cared for in any sort of way. They had been
born out on the hill, rounded up at some point in their life, stuck in a crate on a ship and hauled over here, most during the pony boom of the 1950's.
So I forgave them a lot of stuff and just bought them on PEDIGREES, never had any disappointments.-
Cherry
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2008 |
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| I have not exactly kept up with everything, but the judging system in most all
breeds in this country needs a drastic overhaul. In our breed, as in many others, judges are free to do as they please, and pretty much answer to no one.
When I worked for the AMHA, you had to keep your 'rating' above a certain number or you were called out, and after that first level, if you did not
improve, could lose your license. I am not opposed to such. The exhibitors evaluation was mandatory, turned in before you could get your grounds passes to
leave the show grounds. However, the management also were responsible for filling out and turning in a report on the judges performance. If you have only
disgruntled exhibitors filling out reports, or the owners of Champions, and the run of the mill are left out, you do not receive a fair picture of the
judging. If ALL exhibitors and the show management are required to fill out detailed forms, the picture is less cloudy. I have not worked for the AMHA in
some years, so have no idea of what they do now.
JUDGING IS NOT AND NEVER SHOULD BE ---PREFERENCE, PERIOD! Any judge who places animals on their own personal preference, should be hung! In some of the European countries judges, judge training, and judge scoring is very different than here. I am 100% against the whole sale handing out of judges cards to all who wish to have them, and I have harped and preached this tune for years, to no avail. Not everyone has the knowledge to be a judge. Not all knowledgeable people have the disposition to be a judge. Not all knowledgeable and kind people have the stamina to be a judge. Not all knowledgeable- kind-strong people have the thick skin required to be a good judge. IT IS NOT AN EASY JOB. And I think way less are suited to it than are carrying cards. - Cherry |
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| Any time a judge cannot give a good reason for placing an animal up or down, I am suspicious. I expect a judge should keep good records on their judging card, it is part of their job. If they don't want to do so, then don't judge... exhibitors don't want a personal opinion they want an opinion based on standards and rules. - Denise | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| When you judge classes where they come in one at a time and are scored by
segmented points, often perfect score equaling 100, the results can even surprise the judge, especially if the class is large. In jumper, western
riding, liberty, trail, etc., if you are scoring 20 or more entries, not possible to connect numbers with actual entries. You must have a good and
workable system, and be fast at math, as they come one at a time with no time in between. That is why the scoring system for the Conservancy is so good, taking the COLLECTIVE POINTS for placement, and not the ' overall look', which has NO place in conformation judging, period. IF---ponies at shows were scored the same, 10 for 10 equaling 100, with 80 to pass, WOW would the Champions be different! And IF---the judges were fair and knowledgeable, those; couch backs, fine bones, no hips, straight back legs, pencil necks on straight shoulders, narrow fronts, unbalanced movers, etc. would not place high at all, because the LOOK would not matter, the scoring would be numerical and COLLECTIVE. When judges look at 'flash and dash' instead of true conformation, when personal preference is the yard stick by which entries are judged instead of the breed standard, when 'presentation' wins over the rules, when an overall 'look' pins over the collective points, when judges go for the 'popular' instead of the 'bare bones' approach, and when pony mills believe their own hype, any breed is doomed. The imports have not interested me since the late 50's/early 60's, and you can see the same trends mentioned above, in many countries across the globe, as far as Welsh are concerned. - Cherry |
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| I consider myself so fortunate to remember
when-----I went to shows to learn something. When the judging was honest and good. Many of us drug ponies out of pastures and they were lucky to have a bath, much less much else. Most of the ponies were clean and the handlers looked nice, but there sure was NOT any; pulling of hair, little clipping, professional handlers, etc. Folks and their kids just did the best they could, lending and borrowing from each other, having a great time, and everyone had FUN, the shows and showing was FUN. It was exciting to win, but more exciting was the chance to meet and speak with some of the real greats of the Welsh world like; Mollie Butler, Mrs. Dupont, Mrs. Romaine, Nancy Benitz, Mrs. Frost, etc. Those judges sure knew ponies, went out of their way to help exhibitors and little kids, exhibited great patience and kindness, worked tirelessly in long classes, put up with all our novice behavior, and were always willing to 'talk ponies' afterwards. Sooooo different today. It was a great education, and I feel so privileged to have ----been there.- Cherry |
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| A couple of judges I ran into knew NOTHING about Welsh. They admitted it. In fact one of them had to ask me what the sections were!!!!! I've spoken to this person in other situations (once was volunteering at a CDE) and this person was still basically CLUELESS about Welsh. But still this person gets to judge. I too have wondered how that can be possible! - Jodi | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| never said or meant to imply that juding is easy; but to judge correctly you
have to know your subject inside and out which begins by knowing the breed standard. You also, imo, have to know how that standard fits with purpose in
order to prioritize flaws. A judge must be impartial always keeping in mind that their decision though based on the day may have far reaching
implications. I feel that the toughest part of judging is always being able to defend one's decision and not in an emotional way at all but in a rational,
objective and methodical way. Every decision should be able to logically follow the adherence to the standard and function follows form. If there is a
tough decision say between two animals I have more respect for the judge who acknowledges it but then can reason their way through why one won out even if
that "reason" may seem trivial such as - maybe it was just a better presentation on that day if the animals were equal in all other ways but it's
important to KNOW that. It's the only way we learn as oppose to speculation, assumptions, etc. Again I'm not saying it's easy but if you're going to walk
around and command the respect, be put in that position to affect placings and breeding practices then darn it you had better be able to demonstrate to me
that you know what you're talking about even if I might not completely agree. There is still room and must be acceptance of some variability and
subjective view but it had better have some logic to it and be relatively easy to demonstrate. If a judge cannot do that and explain it with some sense of
reason then they should not have their card.
What I am saying is that it is possible to be knowledgeable about more the one breed, a breed and a discipline and more. I also am saying that we have no one to thank but ourselves about this matter. What criteria, testing, experience, etc do "we" require for the judges including those who are supposedly "welsh" judges? Is there anywhere that the judges have to demonstrate proficiency other than handing out ribbons at the end of each class? I also have long heard the lamenting about not enough judges and having to make due. Well I think there is a relatively logical answer and solution for that too; but, it requires just a little bit of accountability, a 4 letter word for many in the organization. - Lisa |
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| I see the tides turning up here a little at a time. Form to function is coming
back into style. Not just within our breed, but in the equine world itself. Last Sunday a small B mare of ours had gone to another show out on Long
Island. The judge spoke to her trainer after the classes. She was impressed with the mare (even as I sit and pick her apart) and her 'can do' build and
mental capacity. When I speak to Deanna (Embers trainer) she always comments about how SOUND Ember is. Good stuff. I do remember the day when most 'small
hunter divisions' were little white Welsh trucking the kids around, I was in those classes. Now it's more the 'cookie cutter' kind that has no
longevity. That is changing, it comes back around. The trickle down effect of the big hunters to the smaller version (pony hunters) is going to go by the
wayside as they are NOT smaller versions of horses, they are ponies. The judge commented on that as well. Larges can stay cross breds, part breds or half
Welsh, that does not bother me. What does is the smalls and mediums. They have always been pretty good examples of Welsh to me and for a long while they
were not. But again they will be! I am sure of it. True to the standard Welsh are a gorgeous all-around example of a correct equine. I hear more and more
of this type of stuff and not just in and around the hunt world but Dressage and Driving as well. Judging has GOT to be difficult to say the least. I agree with the thought that people should be using the comment cards more, I am at fault for not. Last year I asked a big breeder and well known Judge after my class what she thought I could improve, work on, etc with my pony. Now mind you I understand they are looking at a billion ponies and maybe can not remember or recall every aspect of each one, BUT I put the questions I had to BOTH Judges. The UK Judge was all over what I could work on, change and had some great input. I followed his advice and did better at the next show. Good solid advice. Our US Judge had nothing to say. NOTHING. I was dumbfounded. How can you judge if you have no opinion? Lay it on the table cupcake I want to see what you are seeing and dang it, YOU ARE THE JUDGE! I'm paying for those thoughts. Yes, I know, not everyone has tough skin and can handle a good old fashioned critque, however, is that not why we go to shows??? There is no one more able to pick my ponies apart then me. I could never be called barn blind. I do think there can be a panel of 'inspectors' that can rightly choose correct confirmation, breed type, etc. and a system of ease to base it on. Not everyone is afraid of the political consequences or the powers that be. Holy moly of course it's scary! This stuff costs money, but NO MORE scary then getting in front of a Judge that has NO IDEA why she pinned a class the way she did!!!!! I am also in agreement with whomever had said our WP Judges NEED MORE EDUCATION. Heck, not for nothing but I have been raised in the Welsh. Literally they have been in my life every single day for my short 34 years and with what I would like to think are good examples with good people from whom to learn, i.e. summers at Mollie Butler's while I was growing up. I have recently spoken to a few people about pursuing my Judges Card, and can you guess the route I would take? Through the USEF. Why? They are much more strict and you have to learner Judge with more people for more time. Then the WP can approve or not. It's a harder route to go. I want to know my sh%t, not be out there guessing with a dumb look on my face when someone asks me a question. Marketing like mad of anything in the end equals bigger dollars, not necessarily a better product. If you are force fed something long enough tolerance goes up and it becomes the norm. Just some thoughts :) Fire Away! - Sara |
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| Would it not improve your confidence in the placings at welsh shows if you could
be confident that the animals in the classes, whether 1 or 20, were being judged against the Welsh Breed Standard not each other, and according to their
Sections' description, and by the Rules?
It would mine; but it can only be done by weeding out the poor and preference judges and replace them with judges that KNOW and support the Welsh Breed Standard, the Description of each Section, and the Rules. - Denise |
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Luckily, the Welsh Breed Standard is very plainly written and worded, and I see no problem for anyone versed in
equines understanding it. If you want to see a complicated Standard look at the American Shetland. Anyone who can not understand
the Welsh Standard needs to go back to pony school. It is possible to get the parts of the horse off the internet, go to the feed store and buy a
little book, or get one from the 4-H.
We provided in the current Welsh rules book, not only the written Standard, but descriptive wording along with pictures.
Unless you are totally brain dead, I can not see how on earth it could be hard to understand. Now not understanding it and not wanting to
understand it are two different things. - Cherry
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Just back from our Heart of MN back to back silver shows and where I was the show secretary, show manager, announcer,
exhibitor in HW pleasure driving (show 1), owner of 2 ponies shown and mom to a bunch of girls who were showing.
Our judges were Dana Caudle-Byal for the first show and Suzan Stevens for the second show.
Dana is the nicest lady and always has something encouraging to say to exhibitors. She's been out of the ring
for a few years, but is getting back in the swing of things. Her knowledge of Welsh ponies with true type, conformation and movement has NOT
diminished. I was very pleased to show under and work with her. :)
Suzan is probably one of the best judges I've shown under/worked with. She judges BY THE BOOK, even if this
means not placing someone (didn't perform all the required gaits, rode 2 handed with a curb in western pleasure). She did explain it to this
exhibitor who was rather scared and riding a green animal - but Suzan was also VERY supportive and encouraging. She also pointed out where our
lead liners need to conform to the rulebook as to the correct bit for ponies over 5 years and number of hands on the reins when riding western. As
she says, if they start doing it wrong now, it becomes a habit that is hard to break. And the adults should be familiar with the rules if they are
going to show! It isn't the child's fault - it's the adults who think that it's a "everyone should get a ribbon cuz they're cute" show. But
she was VERY nice to these folks, giving them the opportunity before the class to change bits and letting them know that they will be placed lower if
they didn't. Hopefully, they'll come back totally legal and correct for the next show! Suzan also spoke with each child, giving them praise
where merited and kind advise where needed. Every exhibitor - junior or adult - that I spoke to was so grateful for her words of wisdom.
Each pony/rider came back doing better than the last class. LOTS of big smiles. :)
For other show managers who are looking for judges for future shows, I HIGHLY recommend these ladies. Not only
do they judge BY THE BOOK, but they are lovely people who are great to work with and good with exhibitors. I asked Suzan at the end of the day
about my 2 B weanlings who had shown that morning and it took her a minute to bring them to mind (would have taken ME longer!), but she remembered them
and had comments and reasons for her placings. They were also reasonable in their fees, hotel and travel arrangements. Our show was MORE
than happy with them and wish we could have them back every year. This was the second time we've had Dana and the third time we've had Suzan.
- Donna
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| "I think that a 'minimal' inspection would be a good idea. One that could be given by a veterinarian. Breeding stock should be inspected for cryptorchidism, parrot and sow mouth, pigeon toes and excessive toeing out, cow hocks etc. We need to start with the basics in the breeding shed, and worry about breed type and movement later at shows. - Doris | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| What the h*** is a halter class is about? To me it IS a minimal inspection. It's even in the breed standard re: cryptorchidism. I'm probably one of the only judges that looks for parrot/sow mouth; base narrow/base wide/cow hocks, etc are basic conformation flaws...and I probably judge the walk a lot harder than most. It's the basis for all the other gaits. I do get a kick out of some comments, especially since the LOC denied one commenter's application because of that person's blatant socializing with competitors during the show! People think the evaluations and complaints aren't read/checked out, but they are. If a judge gets just one negative evaluation, it's hard to take that as 'gospel' and I wouldn't want to pull any judge's card based on just one negative evaluation; however, when a judge gets more than one 'bad' evaluation then the LOC does start looking into the problem. Some problems can be corrected with education; some can't. The pool of judges for welsh is so small that we are loath to be extremely selective when it comes to bringing in new judges. One of the biggest problems I find when we are evaluating new judge's applications is that many have absolutely NO IDEA of ring procedure/safety/what to do as they have possibly had very little actual judging experience (regardless of what their perceived level of competence regarding breed standard and performance is.) I've been in classes (not necessarily welsh classes) where it took the judge forever to make up his/her mind. Have I made judging mistakes. I sure have. But I've learned from those mistakes...Still do as I'm not perfect and all judges DO miss things. I just try not to miss much... - Marsha | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| I will say that once you have made your initial placings, in my case conformation
first, then movement, then type, preference does come into play. I happen to prefer a really good mover over something that might have more "type" because
I believe that if a pony can't get from Point A to Point B without taking all day, what good is it? But, that is just my opinion. Perhaps the woman at the
clinic meant opinion and truthfully, that's all it is - my opinion of what is before me and how it is shown on that particular day. Same ponies, different
day, maybe different handlers, etc, - placings could be different - all other things being equal. Some judges put more emphasis on type, some on movement,
some (like you say) don't even look at conformation, especially inheritable traits like parrot/sow mouth. And I've seen ponies go to supreme which had
legs going in 4 different directions... Not sure how many judges could be 'educated' - especially the ones who already have cards from other disciplines and/or who have been judging for years. I think it's the new ones we have to concentrate on. I would like to see clinics run with live ponies and everybody placing them and giving their reasons. I don't think it should be a pass/fail type of thing but a learning event. Of course, it would take a really good hearted, thick-skinned soul to put up their ponies for such a thing. I know the local 4H came to my place once and I had to pull 4 ponies out for them to place and then tell them how I would have placed them so they could compare their answers to mine. I think it was interesting for everyone. Of course, I pulled out one of my top mares and then went on down the line to one that I just liked her personality as she was definitely never going to be a show ring pony... - Marsha |
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| Marsha, Though I agree with you wholeheartedly that "To me it IS a minimal
inspection. It's even in the breed standard re: cryptorchidism." your statement is totally true. And that in the distant past classes were judged
that way, it is seldom and far between that classes are judged that way now and in the immediate past. YOU ARE one of the only judges that does look for
conformation faults and that is why I recommend you whenever I am asked about judges. Believe me if I did not think that you knew what a Welsh pony should
look and move like and what minor/major faults it had I would not. However, Doris is right in one way. If the judges judging now do not know or judge against minor/major faults (especially inherited faults) then minor inspections might be a way to cull those ponies being pinned in championships and being touted as 'breeding stock'. I personally think that the UK WPCS ought to think about this one too! I am sorry if you disagree but there are people out there producing outright bad conformation in Welsh ponies and cobs and it should not be rewarded by pinning those animals up. - Denise |
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| Marsha, Though I agree with you wholeheartedly that "To me it IS a minimal
inspection. It's even in the breed standard re: cryptorchidism." your statement is totally true. And that in the distant past classes were judged
that way, it is seldom and far between that classes are judged that way now and in the immediate past. YOU ARE one of the only judges that does look for
conformation faults and that is why I recommend you whenever I am asked about judges. Believe me if I did not think that you knew what a Welsh pony should
look and move like and what minor/major faults it had I would not. However, Doris is right in one way. If the judges judging now do not know or judge against minor/major faults (especially inherited faults) then minor inspections might be a way to cull those ponies being pinned in championships and being touted as 'breeding stock'. I personally think that the UK WPCS ought to think about this one too! I am sorry if you disagree but there are people out there producing outright bad conformation in Welsh ponies and cobs and it should not be rewarded by pinning those animals up. - Marsha |
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| No, we're not in disagreement on this. I just don't see how a minimal inspection
a would cull these animals from the show ring. They'd still show up (at least that's how I interpret what has been said so far on the list) in the breed
ring. I've even had UK judges want to dismiss the part about having them walk towards me. You can't see a lot of movement and conformation faults from the
side and the 'walk away and trot back past' that most judges use, myself included doesn't cut it all the time, especially if the judge doesn't/won't move
in order to see the movement from behind. Much easier to make people move directly at you. I watch other judges and they usually make no effort whatsoever
to watch anything other than movement viewed from the side. And thanks, I know you wouldn't recommend me if you didn't think I knew what I was doing.- Marsha |
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| Marsha, I am not sure what she means either; but, perhaps an inspection is meant for inheritable faults for breeding prior to classes. Again I don't know. I will never throw out the idea of inspections though, if it was done fairly it certainly could be an education tool. And I would want either veterinarians who actually know inheritable faults and conformation, or more experienced breeders or owners not actively breeding now, but of course not allowed to inspect animals of their own breeding. There are a lot of these people still around; and hopefully when I can retire (at about 90:) I will be considered one of them.- Denise | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| If the judge does not go by the book, go by the rules, go by the breed standard, and go by the basics of good equine conformation, does not see the animals from all four sides, does not see them walk and trot, does not see them fore and aft, and place them accordingly to his/her best ability, then they have NO business being judges, period, and that goes for ANY breed. Somewhere along the way, many have lost sight of Welsh Ponies as being EQUINES, who have the same faults and qualities as all other equines. The current focus has been so totally obsessed with 'perceived' breed type, which usually is NOT true breed type, much of the EQUINE JUDGING has slipped away. Often the benchmark for a Champion is now; presence, front-only action, beauty, turn-out, and showmanship of handler. Many of the 'Champion' placements now do not in any way reflect the BEST of the breed. Until we get BACK TO BASICS and judging accordingly, the breed will continue to suffer, and Welsh will be the losers.- Cherry | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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since
1992
since
1969
