since 1992                

and

since 1969

Denise Loeffel 973-875-7677

 

Judging

 

I have great plans for a Judging and Judges page here. I have never been to a WPCSA sanctioned show or any show where evaluation sheets for the Judge(s) and their judging competence have been offered to the exhibitors. Nor have I seen anywhere the resuls posted for Show Management to refer to when looking for a Judge for a future show. That leaves Show Management dependent on verbal suggestions of acquaintances in choosing a Judge, the singularly most important decision Show Management has to make affecting every exhibitor (and pony) attending the show.

 

 

When an exhibitor fills out and submits an Evaluation (Complaint) Form at a show it becomes public record. It seems that in many cases the exhibitor is labeled a troublemaker or worse regardless of the substance or perceived actuality of the claim. It has become an actuality that exhibitors will not complete and submit an Evaluation Form due to the actual group effects the exhibitor experiences afterwards. Part of that experience is why this page is posted. YOUR experiences DO matter to your fellow exhibitors and show management. Exhibitors and show management cannot discern good judging from bad judging until a show is past unless the exhibitors at that show give an opinion, both good and bad. Here you can post your honest opinions without fear of ostrasizm or worse. So, please, if you have an opinion please send it in to me to be posted. However, I will not post obvious personality conflicts or "plugs" for or against anyone. Thank you.
   
As an exhibitor, when I attend a show I expect two major considerations. First I expect that the Judging of my ponies and cobs will be fair.  I expect the Judge to be able to dismiss from mind known acquaintances and animals. Second I expect the judging to be competent. I expect the Judge to clear his or her own preferences in animals from consideration of the class before him, and judge solely against the Welsh Breed Standard and by the rules of judging.
   

The above considerations will be the basis of this page.

   

Those who defined the BREED STANDARD were the caretakers of the day who saw a need to have a general registry for the breeding records, getting them out of each farmer's dining room, and recording them in a central location, for all to see and have access to. They were only the breeders of the DAY. The Welsh breed was centuries old, and much commented about in old Celtic writings, and already established when Julius Caesar invaded Brittany in 55 a.d.

No the Welsh ponies did not look as they do today, but more like the Celtic root stock, which is where they came from. Most of those native ponies looked more or less alike; however the deep valleys and high mountains, and harsh terrain did separate the regions, and 'subspecies', if you will, developed and in time became different breeds off the main stem.

I think we strive to defend the traditional standard because that is how Welsh were defined over a century ago, by the stewards who not only had ponies, but were livestockmen of the highest order. And, in the case of Criban, had been breeding Welsh for over 400 years on their Brecon Beacons. They owned all in the area, including that mountain range and more, until unfortunately a dam flooded much of the valley land and their old home place.

Those original ponies, before outside blood (Arab, Thoroughbred, etc.), were small, mostly dark primitive colors, straight headed, but still possessed the pluck and hardness they were noted for down through the centuries.

The Welsh Pony has had a close relationship with man over the centuries, serving him in many capacities. He has doubtlessly gone through many changes down through the years, all certainly not for the good. NONE of our ponies are of 'original' type, but some are of more original type than most, and are possessors of those wonderful qualities and conformation of a century ago.

Trying to protect and perpetuate any breed against 'change' is a daunting task, certainly not an easy one, when the winds of change blow hard, and it is human nature to 'better' everything on earth.

We all have known TRUE WELSH and that is the core of why we will do our thing, run against the tide, and try so hard to keep some of them for generations in the future.

Cherry Wilson

   
Finally I would like to remind people newly interested in Welsh breeding that regardless of what you see or hear, not every Champion is suitable for breeding. There are many animals out there who have been campaigned to Championships despite inheritable faults both due to "preference" judging and to a lack of knowledge of serious conformation faults which can and are passed on to future generations. Not every breeding animal has to be a Champion. There are many breeding animals who have never been shown, who are superb brood animals producing outstanding youngstock who go on to have excellent show records themselves or producers of ponies who have the type, temperament, conformation and movement true to the Welsh Breed Standard. So after you've taken a show record into consideration, you must study the Breed Standard and the descriptions of each section of Welsh, know conformation, know faults and which are known to be inheritable. When you can look at a Welsh and pick out its faults, and rate its "look" by its consistency to the Breed Standard and description, then you are ready to choose Welsh ponies and cobs which will promulgate your breeding program. My advice, read, read, read about a pony's ancestors; research the bloodlines; use common sense more and rely on advertising less. YOU have the ability to discern a "good" Welsh pony or cob from a mediocre one, use that ability, discern the hype from the truth and you will do well.
   
I am providing a Judging comment/recommendation section below.
All comments and/or recommendations are provided with permission of the owners and are being supplied for the education and information of Welsh owners, show staff and others in the hopes of clarifying the position of owners and exhibitors on judging standards.
   
Anyway...later, when speaking with the Judge - from Crumpwell Stud, it was interesting to hear him say..."well some had genetic faults, didn't they". He didn't say which ones, nor did he make it any more plain, but it was great to hear that he did acknowledge the issue and place ponies down because of it.   Marie Howran
I have not exactly kept up with everything, but the judging system in most all breeds in this country needs a drastic overhaul. In our breed, as in many others, judges are free to do as they please, and pretty much answer to no one. When I worked for the AMHA, you had to keep your 'rating' above a certain number or you were called out, and after that first level, if you did not improve, could lose your license. I am not opposed to such. The exhibitors evaluation was mandatory, turned in before you could get your grounds passes to leave the show grounds. However, the management also were responsible for filling out and turning in a report on the judges performance. If you have only disgruntled exhibitors filling out reports, or the owners of Champions, and the run of the mill are left out, you do not receive a fair picture of the judging. If ALL exhibitors and the show management are required to fill out detailed forms, the picture is less cloudy. I have not worked for the AMHA in some years, so have no idea of what they do now.

JUDGING IS NOT AND NEVER SHOULD BE ---PREFERENCE, PERIOD! Any judge who places animals on their own personal preference, should be hung!  In some of the European countries judges, judge training, and judge scoring is very different than here.  I am 100% against the whole sale handing out of judges cards to all who wish to have them, and I have harped and preached this tune for years, to no avail.  Not everyone has the knowledge to be a judge.  Not all knowledgeable people have the disposition to be a judge.  Not all knowledgeable and kind people have the stamina to be a judge.  Not all knowledgeable- kind-strong people have the thick skin required to be a good judge.  IT IS NOT AN EASY JOB.  And I think way less are suited to it than are carrying cards.

  Cherry Wilson
Any time a judge cannot give a good reason for placing an animal up or down, I am suspicious. I expect a judge should keep good records on their judging card, it is part of their job. If they don't want to do so, then don't judge... exhibitors don't want a personal opinion they want an opinion based on standards and rules.   Denise Loeffel
     
When you judge classes where they come in one at a time and are scored by segmented points, often perfect score equaling 100, the results can even surprise the judge, especially if the class is large.  In jumper, western riding, liberty, trail, etc., if you are scoring 20 or more entries, not possible to connect numbers with actual entries.  You must have a good and workable system, and be fast at math, as they come one at a time with no time in between. 
That is why the scoring system for the Conservancy is so good, taking the COLLECTIVE POINTS for placement, and not the ' overall look', which has NO place in conformation judging, period. 
 IF---ponies at shows were scored the same, 10 for 10 equaling 100, with 80 to pass, WOW would the Champions be different!  And IF---the judges were fair and knowledgeable, those; couch backs, fine bones, no hips, straight back legs, pencil necks on straight shoulders, narrow fronts, unbalanced movers, etc. would not place high at all, because the LOOK would not matter, the scoring would be numerical and COLLECTIVE.

When judges look at 'flash and dash' instead of true conformation, when personal preference is the yard stick by which entries are judged instead of the breed standard, when 'presentation' wins over the rules, when an overall 'look'  pins over the collective points, when judges go for the 'popular' instead of the 'bare bones' approach, and when pony mills believe their own hype, any breed is doomed.  The imports have not interested me since the late 50's/early 60's, and you can see the same trends mentioned above, in many countries across the globe, as far as Welsh are concerned. 

  Cherry
     
I don't see how any of us who love this breed can disagree.  When I take the time and money and effort to get my animals to a show, I want to KNOW that the judge is one of the best out there.  I am there to get an honest and fair evaluation of my animal and yet I don't want to walk out of there insulted or made to feel inferior.  It's all right if my pony does not place well as long as the judge can explain to me exactly WHY according to the breed standard.  As a show manager, I need to be able to work with the judge in a professional way.Let's only give cards to the best of the best!  Maybe leave provisional judges at that level longer???  Give them time to learn and learn from their mistakes before they are advanced to our elite judging cards.   Prefers to remain anonymous
     
I consider myself so fortunate to remember when-----I went to shows to learn something.  When the judging was honest and good.

 Many of us drug ponies out of pastures and they were lucky to have a bath, much less much else.  Most of the ponies were clean and the handlers looked nice, but there sure was NOT any; pulling of hair, little clipping, professional handlers, etc.  Folks and their kids just did the best they could, lending and borrowing from each other, having a great time, and everyone had FUN,  the shows and showing was FUN.  It was exciting to win, but more exciting was the chance to meet and speak with some of the real greats of the Welsh world like; Mollie Butler, Mrs. Dupont, Mrs. Romaine, Nancy Benitz, Mrs. Frost, etc.  Those judges sure knew ponies, went out of their way to help exhibitors and little kids, exhibited great patience and kindness, worked tirelessly in long classes, put up with all our novice behavior, and were always willing to 'talk ponies' afterwards.  Sooooo different today.  It was a great education, and I feel so privileged to have ----been there.

  Cherry
     
     
     
     
WPCSA SHOW RULES
     
 

          

CASMARAN WELSH COBS
CROSS CREEK WELSH PONIES
Welsh Information
Welsh Pictures
Welsh Articles (Historical)
Criban Victor
For Newbies 1
For Newbies 2
Judging Welsh
 
WELSH JUDGES IN THE USA
By no means are the judges below endorsed by us. This is just a list of judges of Welsh Ponies and Cobs which I have compiled from the internet for ease of locating a judge for a show.
It is Show Management's job to evaluate and choose a suitable judge for their show.
   
Stonecroft, Inc.
Marsha S. Himler
22 Route 423
Stillwater, NY 12170
(518) 664-8370
 
 
   
Tracey Dopko<
USEF Registered Welsh Judge<
WPCSA Welsh Judge
WPCS Welsh Judge
Box 375
Darwell, Alberta
Canada T0E 0L0
(780) 892-7930

 

 

   
Suzanne Moody
Judge Welsh Pony & Cob Society America
Judge at the International Welsh Pony and Cob Show, Sweden
540-854-8234
9221 Zachary Taylor Hwy.
Unionville, Virginia  22567
 
   

Mrs. Jane Fischer deThouars
  22917 Via Santana, Box #14
Nuevo, CA 92567
Home Phone:  (951) 928-4562
(as of July 17, 2004, the area code changed to (951)
Phone work: (562) 920-0472
Cell phone:  (562) 964-1921

 
 

Did you know....

 

Influential Section B sire Tan-y-Bwlch Berwyn's sire was an African Barb pony. In 1565, noted writer of British horses, Thomas Blunderville, stated that horses commonly called “… Barbarians do come out of the King of Tunis land, out of Massilie Numidia. They were small, but very swift and durable … which is the cause why we (Britain’s) esteem them so much.”
Many people and historians assume Barb horses are Arabian horses. This confusion and misinformation stemmed from the fact that both breeds eventually shared the Arabic culture. Also, their respective names were bluntly misused in literature. In 1875, in his British book “The Book of the Horse”, S. Sidney comments: Every oriental horse, Turk, Barb or Egyptianbred, is called an Arab in this country.” An excerpt from a 1916 Department of Agriculture “Breeders of Livestock Handbook” confirms: “Recent investigations indicate the Barb to have been the real source of oriental blood. A common error results in the use of the term ‘Arabian’ in sense synonymous with ‘oriental’.”
The Berbers from North Africa formed a substantial part of the Muslim armies that invaded Spain in the 8th century, and it seems clear that their Barb horses played a major part in the development of the Spanish Horse, Including the modern version of which is the Andalucian .
The Barb was also influential in the evolution of the Thoroughbred. Horses from North Africa, variously termed Berber, Barb, or Barbary, were imported to the Royal Studs of England from before the time of the Plantagenets. Roan Barbary, the favorite horse of Richard II (1377-99), was one of many horses of the same origin at the king's studs. Barb blood, together with that of the Spanish Jennet, itself at least a first cousin to the Barb, was certainly a predominant element in the Royal "running horses", which formed the base stock for the early Thoroughbred.


Welsh Section B Criban Victor, Champion at Ponies of Britain Show in 1959, 1962, 1965, and 1966 and the NPS Shows in 1956, 1959, and 1960; made a glorious retirement from the show ring in 1969, aged 25, when he won the Section B Championship and was Reserve Supreme Champion of the whole show at Caern. In 1978, his image was included in a series of stamps depicting horses, produced by the Royal Mail. Following his death at the age of 29, his breeder had his head stuffed; and it has since been donated to the WPCS.
CRIBAN VICTOR (foaled 1944) was sired by CRIBAN WINSTON and gained his height from his dam CRIBAN WHALEBONE, of Cob parentage. CRIBAN VICTOR spent most of his active life at the Gredington Stud and left a great mark on Section B ponies throughout the Stud Book

In volume 1 of the Welsh Stud Book the Welsh Mountain Ponies were allowed to be up to 12 hands 2 inches and every entry had to be inspected and passed, both by an Inspector of the Society and (for stallions only) by a Veterinary Surgeon. Entries amounted to 9 stallions and 273 mare; of the stallions one was grey, the others were dark coloured, mainly bays and browns, of the mares 66% were bay/brown/black, 14% chestnuts, 8% roan, 4% creams/duns and others of unrecorded colour (only two mares).

 

The Decline of the Section B Welsh Pony Standard

 
The Section B animal registered in Volume 1 of the Welsh Stud Book was a most useful type that would carry a shepherd on his day’s work.

With the increased popularity of riding by children since 1930 a finer, lighter type of pony has been developed with strong emphasis being laid on striving to keep the true ‘Welsh’ characteristics. The typical Welsh Section B pony shown at present is the current Working Hunter Pony, much like the British Riding Pony in both looks and pedigrees.

To bring this about a few stallions of slighter type containing at least 50% of Welsh blood were admitted to the Stud Book, the two most influential being CRAVEN CYRUS and TANYBWLCH BERWYN. The infusion of this outside blood began an expansion of Section B in 1958/1959 when progeny of FS2 mares, born of this blood, led to four sires who between them laid a very firm foundation for the change in the Section B: SOLWAY MASTER BRONZE (foaled in 1959), BROCHWELL COBWELL (foaled in 1959), DOWNLAND DAUPHIN (foaled in 1959), CHIRK CARADOG (foaled in 1958) and his full brother CHIRK CROGAN (foaled in 1959).

 

Mountain and Moorland Ponies

 
The modern day survival of the native pony can be much attributed to the leisure industry, pony trekking and various other activities have become popular. The native pony's size and build makes them an ideal mount to carry both adults and children.

Introduction of foreign blood to pure stock, the onset of war, and mechanisation have all threatened the survival of each native breed. Selective breeding programs, and the establishment of breed societies who, for the most part, recognised these threats, have worked to preserve the purity and true characteristics of  native ponies. Maintaining the wonderful heritage of native ponies is paramount.
 

The white issue NEVER was, and IS NOT, whether a pony or cob is a purebred or not.
The issue IS whether an animal meets the requirements for registration.  Excessively white Welsh ponies meeting pinto standards do not meet WPCSA registration requirements. The registration rule states NO PIEBALDS OR SKEWBALDS. Piebalds and Skewbalds ARE pintos.

 

Powered by WebRing.
 

Powered by WebRing.
 

website statistics